Only quarter-wits over there would fail to understand that guns are inanimate objects and it's the intent of the user that makes them either a public benefit or detriment.mistermack wrote:It's funny how the abundance of guns is used to justify the abundance of guns.
And the frequency of killings is used to justify killings.
Only the half-wits across the pond could say it all with a straight face.
German exchange student killed. Montana SYG law
Re: German exchange student killed. Montana SYG law
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
Re: German exchange student killed. Montana SYG law
The garage is legally part of the "occupied structure."laklak wrote:Kid was in the garage, not in the house, unless he starts trying to break down the door into the house he isn't posing any threat to the occupants.
He knew someone was in there because he set up cameras and motion detectors. He has every right to leave his garage door open 24/7, and doing so doesn't authorize anyone to enter it without permission, ever.
No way in hell I'm opening a garage door and firing multiple rounds into it without knowing who is in there and what is going on. No way I'm leaving my garage open and unsecured with visible valuables in it.
Neither SYG nor Castle Doctrine laws are going to be repealed any time soon. They are in fact spreading all over.All this sort of droolingly imbecilic behavior is going to accomplish is to rile up public opinion to the point SYG laws are repealed, which is not something I want to see. They need to put this moron away before he kills someone else over a fucking lawnmower.
Look, someone comes into my house I'm going to waste them, full stop. But I hear someone in my garage I'm calling the cops. There's nothing in there worth their life OR mine. For all this idiot knew there were a couple of gangbangers out there with Uzis.[/quote]
You just wiped out the case against him with that single statement. You're right, they could have been armed gangbangers, and they were in his "occupied structure," and they (arguably) gave him a reasonable belief he was going to be assaulted (as you point out), which under Montana law justifies his use of deadly force.
[/quote]Guy probably just finished "Tactical Takedowns for Dummies", because no one with any sort of training is going to stick a fucking shotgun around the door and start blasting away blindly.[/quote]
Well, I never said he was either smart or tactically proficient, just that he likely acted within the four corners of the law.
In any event, this will hopefully put other burglars in Montana on notice that whether their victim goes to prison or not, they might get dead, which hopefully will persuade them to take up an honest occupation.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
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Re: German exchange student killed. Montana SYG law
I certainly understand that. I also understand that a high proportion of gun owners are morons, and that's why innocent people keep getting killed.Seth wrote:Only quarter-wits over there would fail to understand that guns are inanimate objects and it's the intent of the user that makes them either a public benefit or detriment.mistermack wrote:It's funny how the abundance of guns is used to justify the abundance of guns.
And the frequency of killings is used to justify killings.
Only the half-wits across the pond could say it all with a straight face.
You can't ban morons, but you can ban guns.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.
Re: German exchange student killed. Montana SYG law
Yup. And the shit-for-brains burglar gave him a legal reason to do it.FBM wrote:It does reek of someone looking for a reason to kill somebody, dunnit? That was a shit-for-brains tactic from the get-go.
Pretty fucking stupid if you ask me.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
Re: German exchange student killed. Montana SYG law
Trayvon Martin tried to kill the man who killed him in lawful self-defense, as the jury ruled. Trayvon Martin committed suicide by victim.mistermack wrote:Trayvon Martin was returning home from the shop, when he got killed. The asshole still got off.
Well, they seem to have stopped committing criminal acts lately, so you may be out of luck.This asshole has nothing to worry about.
What it needs is for a Kennedy kid to get shot.
Now where was Harry Reid when you really need him?
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
Re: German exchange student killed. Montana SYG law
You can ban guns, but it won't stop crooks from having guns, all it will do is keep victims from protecting themselves.mistermack wrote:I certainly understand that. I also understand that a high proportion of gun owners are morons, and that's why innocent people keep getting killed.Seth wrote:Only quarter-wits over there would fail to understand that guns are inanimate objects and it's the intent of the user that makes them either a public benefit or detriment.mistermack wrote:It's funny how the abundance of guns is used to justify the abundance of guns.
And the frequency of killings is used to justify killings.
Only the half-wits across the pond could say it all with a straight face.
You can't ban morons, but you can ban guns.
The burglar wasn't innocent, which is the whole point.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
Re: German exchange student killed. Montana SYG law
Very sensible its a lot easier to restrict tools than it is to restrict people.I certainly understand that. I also understand that a high proportion of gun owners are morons, and that's why innocent people keep getting killed.
You can't ban morons, but you can ban guns.
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!
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Re: German exchange student killed. Montana SYG law
The kid WAS innocent. Just shows that you don't understand the very simple point.Seth wrote:
The burglar wasn't innocent, which is the whole point.
Last edited by mistermack on Fri May 02, 2014 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.
Re: German exchange student killed. Montana SYG law
Except that it does no good and makes things worse, because the people who obey restrictive laws aren't the ones misusing the tools in the first place.MrJonno wrote:Very sensible its a lot easier to restrict tools than it is to restrict people.I certainly understand that. I also understand that a high proportion of gun owners are morons, and that's why innocent people keep getting killed.
You can't ban morons, but you can ban guns.
If we could ban morons, you'd be wearing concrete overshoes already.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
Re: German exchange student killed. Montana SYG law
Ipso facto and de jure he was not. He was illegally in someone else's garage in the middle of the night rooting around in stuff that didn't belong to him. That's the very definition of burglary.mistermack wrote:The kid WAS innocent. Just shows that you missed the very simple point.Seth wrote:
The burglar wasn't innocent, which is the whole point.
The fact that he was an exchange student is irrelevant. The fact that he was young is irrelevant. The only relevant thing is what he was doing when he got shot, which was committing a felony.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
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Re: German exchange student killed. Montana SYG law
That bollocks just shows how little you know, and how much you pretend to know.Seth wrote:Ipso facto and de jure he was not. He was illegally in someone else's garage in the middle of the night rooting around in stuff that didn't belong to him. That's the very definition of burglary.mistermack wrote:The kid WAS innocent. Just shows that you missed the very simple point.Seth wrote:
The burglar wasn't innocent, which is the whole point.
The fact that he was an exchange student is irrelevant. The fact that he was young is irrelevant. The only relevant thing is what he was doing when he got shot, which was committing a felony.
The kid was innocent till proven guilty.
You can take appropriate action without a trial, to save your life etc.
Killing someone without knowing the facts isn't an appropriate action anywhere, except the loony bin across the pond.
It might be appropriate to kill someone as a last resort to stop them shooting you.
But not to guard a handbag.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.
Re: German exchange student killed. Montana SYG law
Only at trial. There is no presumption of innocence in a self-defense situation. Nor are the police required to treat a suspect as innocent, in fact their job is to presume that the suspect is guilty and collect the evidence at the crimescene and take him into custody. The presumption of innocence only applies to the duty of a jury to make that presumption when trying the facts of the case.mistermack wrote:That bollocks just shows how little you know, and how much you pretend to know.Seth wrote:Ipso facto and de jure he was not. He was illegally in someone else's garage in the middle of the night rooting around in stuff that didn't belong to him. That's the very definition of burglary.mistermack wrote:The kid WAS innocent. Just shows that you missed the very simple point.Seth wrote:
The burglar wasn't innocent, which is the whole point.
The fact that he was an exchange student is irrelevant. The fact that he was young is irrelevant. The only relevant thing is what he was doing when he got shot, which was committing a felony.
The kid was innocent till proven guilty.
Yup.You can take appropriate action without a trial, to save your life etc.
Fact: Intruders were seen on video inside his garage.Killing someone without knowing the facts isn't an appropriate action anywhere, except the loony bin across the pond.
Fact: Motion detectors indicated intruders.
Fact: It was dark and the lights were off in the garage.
Fact: The homeowner has every legal right to go investigate intruders in his garage.
He wasn't killed because of a handbag, he was killed because he committed a felony by unlawfully entering an "occupied premises under circumstances that (may have) justified the homeowner in using deadly force because of a perceived threat to occupants of the premises.It might be appropriate to kill someone as a last resort to stop them shooting you.
But not to guard a handbag.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
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Re: German exchange student killed. Montana SYG law
Only to loonies.
Luckily, the rest of the world is a bit more civilised.
Luckily, the rest of the world is a bit more civilised.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.
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Re: German exchange student killed. Montana SYG law
Seth wrote: Fact: Intruders were seen on video inside his garage.
Fact: It was dark and the lights were off in the garage.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.
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Re: German exchange student killed. Montana SYG law
That's no doubt sensible, but faulting the guy for leaving his garage door open is like faulting a rape victim for wearing a short dres.laklak wrote:No way I'm leaving my garage open and unsecured with visible valuables in it.
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