German exchange student killed. Montana SYG law

[Seth]

This guy has no chance of getting away with it. Left his garage open with a handbag in view then waited with a shotgun for someone to come in so he could shoot them. That isn't standing your ground.

That's not the law involved. What's involved is the "Castle doctrine" law:

45-3-103. Use of force in defense of occupied structure. (1) A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the use of force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure.
(2) A person justified in the use of force pursuant to subsection (1) is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if:
(a) the entry is made or attempted and the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent an assault upon the person or another then in the occupied structure; or
(b) the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure.

The law gives much wider latitude when it comes to one's home than it does on the street.

[Seth]

Fuck, if I didn't have a fence around my pool and somebody trespassed and managed to drown I'd be liable. How is that different from a fucking open garage door and valuables in plain sight? Absurd.

How is it different? It's different in that keeping an unfenced pool is an "attractive nuisance" whereas leaving your garage door open isn't.

If what we're reading is true then this asshole needs to be put away, he's a goddamned menace to public safety. I'm a fairly vociferous supporter of gun rights, Castle doctrine and SYG, but this is something entirely unnecessary. Of course the kid shouldn't be in the garage, but the death penalty is a bit harsh.

Kid should have thought of that before taking up burglary. And it's not a "death penalty" because it's not a "penalty" under the law, it's the natural consequence of burgling someone's "occupied structure" and placing them in reasonable fear of an assault on anyone "then in the structure."

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

[Seth]

That's too limiting. I think SYG laws in general are absurd.

Self defense is not absurd. SYG laws are.

Ever have someone invade your home and terrorize your family at gunpoint while they steal your stuff?

When you have, get back to us on how absurd you think it is then.

Oh, and it's not "SYG", it's "Castle Doctrine," two completely different things in the law.

[Seth]

Should this be considered standing your ground? No.
Should he get off using the stand your ground law? No.
Is this evidence against the validity of stand your ground laws? No.
Was the kid a thief? I don't know.

He was in the garage, at night, uninvited. The homeowner has every right to believe he's not there delivering Christmas presents.

[orpheus]

International outcry. Officials demand justice.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/german-offi ... n-montana/

Here's justice: Don't fucking burglarize other people's garages in the middle of the night, you might get shot.

Sigh.

How do you know he's a burglar, Seth?

[orpheus]

That's too limiting. I think SYG laws in general are absurd.

Self defense is not absurd. SYG laws are.

Ever have someone invade your home and terrorize your family at gunpoint while they steal your stuff?

Yes, as a matter of fact.

When you have, get back to us on how absurd you think it is then.

Ok. It is absurd.

Oh, and it's not "SYG", it's "Castle Doctrine," two completely different things in the law.

Yes, I was in error here. I have mixed feelings about SYG. Castle Doctrine laws as they stand, however, are absurd.

[pErvinalia]

Should this be considered standing your ground? No.
Should he get off using the stand your ground law? No.
Is this evidence against the validity of stand your ground laws? No.
Was the kid a thief? I don't know.

He was in the garage, at night, uninvited. The homeowner has every right to believe he's not there delivering Christmas presents.

But isn't there some problem with a conspiracy (or some other more appropriate term) here? If the owner has set this situation up so that he could shoot someone, surely that mitigates against him?

[JimC]

Should this be considered standing your ground? No.
Should he get off using the stand your ground law? No.
Is this evidence against the validity of stand your ground laws? No.
Was the kid a thief? I don't know.

He was in the garage, at night, uninvited. The homeowner has every right to believe he's not there delivering Christmas presents.

But isn't there some problem with a conspiracy (or some other more appropriate term) here? If the owner has set this situation up so that he could shoot someone, surely that mitigates against him?

We can only hope the jury sees it that way...

[mistermack]

International outcry. Officials demand justice.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/german-offi ... n-montana/

Here's justice: Don't fucking burglarize other people's garages in the middle of the night, you might get shot.

Sigh.

How do you know he's a burglar, Seth?

Don't you sigh at Seth. He might be putting the moronic side of the argument, but he speaks for most of America.

[JimC]

International outcry. Officials demand justice.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/german-offi ... n-montana/

Here's justice: Don't fucking burglarize other people's garages in the middle of the night, you might get shot.

Sigh.

How do you know he's a burglar, Seth?

Don't you sigh at Seth. He might be putting the moronic side of the argument, but he speaks for most of America.

Well, to be fair, Gallstones, who isn't exactly a gun hater, was arguing the opposite, as far as I could tell...

[Seth]

International outcry. Officials demand justice.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/german-offi ... n-montana/

Here's justice: Don't fucking burglarize other people's garages in the middle of the night, you might get shot.

Sigh.

How do you know he's a burglar, Seth?

He was in someone else's garage in the middle of the night rooting around in somebody else's stuff. Prima facie burglar.

[Seth]

Should this be considered standing your ground? No.
Should he get off using the stand your ground law? No.
Is this evidence against the validity of stand your ground laws? No.
Was the kid a thief? I don't know.

He was in the garage, at night, uninvited. The homeowner has every right to believe he's not there delivering Christmas presents.

But isn't there some problem with a conspiracy (or some other more appropriate term) here? If the owner has set this situation up so that he could shoot someone, surely that mitigates against him?

Maybe. But I doubt it. He could argue that he set up the honeypot (not trap) in order to apprehend whomever had been burglarizing his home, which he's legally entitled to do, but when he tried, instead of immediately surrendering the intruders did something to make him think he was going to be attacked, which justified his shooting. All he has to do is convince ONE juror that there's reasonable doubt to get a mistrial.

[Seth]

That's too limiting. I think SYG laws in general are absurd.

Self defense is not absurd. SYG laws are.

Ever have someone invade your home and terrorize your family at gunpoint while they steal your stuff?

Yes, as a matter of fact.

And how did that make you feel?

When you have, get back to us on how absurd you think it is then.

Ok. It is absurd.

So at what point in a similar invasion would you wish you had a gun?

Oh, and it's not "SYG", it's "Castle Doctrine," two completely different things in the law.

Yes, I was in error here. I have mixed feelings about SYG. Castle Doctrine laws as they stand, however, are absurd.

So you think everyone should surrender or run away rather than use deadly force inside their home?

[Seth]

International outcry. Officials demand justice.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/german-offi ... n-montana/

Here's justice: Don't fucking burglarize other people's garages in the middle of the night, you might get shot.

Sigh.

How do you know he's a burglar, Seth?

Don't you sigh at Seth. He might be putting the moronic side of the argument, but he speaks for most of America.

Which puts you in the minority 300,000,000 to 1. Which makes you the moron.

[Svartalf]

International outcry. Officials demand justice.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/german-offi ... n-montana/

Here's justice: Don't fucking burglarize other people's garages in the middle of the night, you might get shot.

Sigh.

How do you know he's a burglar, Seth?

He was a trespasser in a country where the law allows use of deadly force against such... He maybe didn't earn getting shot to death without warning, but one has to wonder what he was doing there and if this isn't close to a darwin award.