PZ accuses Shermer of rape.

[Azathoth]

But, there might be some question of believability -- I mean, passed out drunk guys generally can't do much banging.

Passed out, no. But black-out drunk, as in can't remember anything the next day, I definitely have experience to the contrary

RAEPIST

[Coito ergo sum]

Moral of the story is don't fuck anyone without a signed consent form.

He: Would you like to have sex with me?
Her: Yes.
He: I'll have my people contact your people, standard contract?
Her: Standard contract, no anal, oral by mutual consent.
He: Done. Meet back here next week?
Her: Great. Ciao!

Another moral is to steer well clear of Skepchicks, A+ers and Freethoughtbloggers. If a woman aligns herself in any way with that ilk, repossess the drink you bought her and tell her to buy her own fucking wine.

You can also add feminist to that. I wouldn't care if they looked like a supermodel I'm making a beeline for the door.

Seriously? You don't want to sleep with feminists?
And why on earth not?
Do women who consider themselves equal to men scare you?

It's not the concept of equality. It's the nonsense like the accusations against Shermer. "He flirted with me and kept filling my wine glass." That kind of person needs to be avoided. Don't you think so?

[Coito ergo sum]

But, there might be some question of believability -- I mean, passed out drunk guys generally can't do much banging.

Pegging?

Well, sure, if the woman straps one on and fucks the guy up the ass while he's asleep or passed out, that would be rape. Not sure how common that is, though. But, if those were the facts, then of course it would be rape.

[pErvinalia]

And if you really are just talking with your arse and think a feminist equals a woman who thinks all sex is rape then I believe you have reached a new level of stupid in this universe.

Just read the nonsense foisted upon Shermer in the OP. You think they're not "real feminists" or something? The ones that think that women whose wine glasses are filled and get "flirted" with by Michael Shermer have something to complain about? They're just out for "equality?" "I'm too timid to say I've had enough to drink" is just about equality?

Ok. Take two. My comment about set theory still stands. Unfortunately I've edited it out and couldn't be arsed explaining it again. Sælir is responding to DaveDodo who was referring to all feminists. Coit here (and in his post previous to this) is responding to Sælir like she is talking about just the set "apelusters". His reply is a non-sequitur at best, and most probably a strawman, given his history.

[Pappa]

I am a lot more open to the possibility that there might be something to this whole "rape culture" business, even if I still think that it is rather unfortunately named for a meme that wants widespread acceptance. Some of the things around the Stubbensville case have given me pause. But where is the research? Where are the surveys? Where are the psyche experiments? If they've been done, then why can an NPR listening, liberal Facebook feed having, atheist forum goer not know of them off the top of his head?

I'm not. The evidence I've seen presented so far simply suggests that there is a correlative link among people who treat rape lightly in certain respects and also indulge in "rape-like" behaviours. Essentially the frat-boy stereotype. I haven't encountered anything at all yet that suggests there is a causative link between say, comedians using rape as material, and the public at large being more likely to commit rape. I accept the idea that if a culture accepts rape as normal there will be more rapes (such as India). But it seems to me that's a circular argument. Of course people will do something if they consider it normal. It doesn't follow that if people joke about rape they are more likely to commit rape. Claiming so is a basic failure of logic and a distortion of the available facts.

[Robert_S]

I am a lot more open to the possibility that there might be something to this whole "rape culture" business, even if I still think that it is rather unfortunately named for a meme that wants widespread acceptance. Some of the things around the Stubbensville case have given me pause. But where is the research? Where are the surveys? Where are the psyche experiments? If they've been done, then why can an NPR listening, liberal Facebook feed having, atheist forum goer not know of them off the top of his head?

I'm not. The evidence I've seen presented so far simply suggests that there is a correlative link among people who treat rape lightly in certain respects and also indulge in "rape-like" behaviours. Essentially the frat-boy stereotype. I haven't encountered anything at all yet that suggests there is a causative link between say, comedians using rape as material, and the public at large being more likely to commit rape. I accept the idea that if a culture accepts rape as normal there will be more rapes (such as India). But it seems to me that's a circular argument. Of course people will do something if they consider it normal. It doesn't follow that if people joke about rape they are more likely to commit rape. Claiming so is a basic failure of logic and a distortion of the available facts.

I was thinking along the lines of things like this: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 0#p1485330

A girl gets raped and they come in to lecture the boys about the hazards of mixing drugs and alcohol with social media. There was a lot more that I don't have the links to right now, but the ugliness shown the victim and sympathy shown the perps makes me think there could be something to it.

To be fair, the frat boy scene in this town is a lot less douchey, and a lot less rapey than it was 20 years ago. At least according to my personal observation and some cops I've talked to.

[Pappa]

I am a lot more open to the possibility that there might be something to this whole "rape culture" business, even if I still think that it is rather unfortunately named for a meme that wants widespread acceptance. Some of the things around the Stubbensville case have given me pause. But where is the research? Where are the surveys? Where are the psyche experiments? If they've been done, then why can an NPR listening, liberal Facebook feed having, atheist forum goer not know of them off the top of his head?

I'm not. The evidence I've seen presented so far simply suggests that there is a correlative link among people who treat rape lightly in certain respects and also indulge in "rape-like" behaviours. Essentially the frat-boy stereotype. I haven't encountered anything at all yet that suggests there is a causative link between say, comedians using rape as material, and the public at large being more likely to commit rape. I accept the idea that if a culture accepts rape as normal there will be more rapes (such as India). But it seems to me that's a circular argument. Of course people will do something if they consider it normal. It doesn't follow that if people joke about rape they are more likely to commit rape. Claiming so is a basic failure of logic and a distortion of the available facts.

I was thinking along the lines of things like this: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 0#p1485330

A girl gets raped and they come in to lecture the boys about the hazards of mixing drugs and alcohol with social media. There was a lot more that I don't have the links to right now, but the ugliness shown the victim and sympathy shown the perps makes me think there could be something to it.

To be fair, the frat boy scene in this town is a lot less douchey, and a lot less rapey than it was 20 years ago. At least according to my personal observation and some cops I've talked to.

Yeah, I read about that student athlete social program last week or so. I found it a bit confusing. I don't know anyone who thinks rape is OK... and I wouldn't associate with anyone who does. None of my social circle are unusual in any way, they're just ordinary people. I'm guessing most student athletes are too... as in, they're not rapists. I'm not really sure how a social program like that is supposed to stop people who do that sort of thing committing rape, other than highlighting that they might get caught and go to prison (which seems like an odd angle to me, surely everyone knows that?).

[Robert_S]

Yeah, I read about that student athlete social program last week or so. I found it a bit confusing. I don't know anyone who thinks rape is OK... and I wouldn't associate with anyone who does. None of my social circle are unusual in any way, they're just ordinary people. I'm guessing most student athletes are too... as in, they're not rapists. I'm not really sure how a social program like that is supposed to stop people who do that sort of thing committing rape, other than highlighting that they might get caught and go to prison (which seems like an odd angle to me, surely everyone knows that?).

You and I both probably run in circles that don't have a high douchebag quotient, so we don't necessarily see all there is firsthand. I think it might be more of a subtle thing though: thinking up excuses, a tendency to blame the victim (mostly among older people), and perhaps underestimating the danger or the potential to change some men's attitude. I'm hesitant to say those kinds of problems constitute a "rape culture" but they are certainly aspects of our cultures that can and should be addressed.

[Pappa]

I think it might be more of a subtle thing though: thinking up excuses, a tendency to blame the victim (mostly among older people), and perhaps underestimating the danger or the potential to change some men's attitude. I'm hesitant to say those kinds of problems constitute a "rape culture" but they are certainly aspects of our cultures that can and should be addressed.

I agree completely. I think "rape culture" is one of those unfortunate words/phrases that has the potential to do great harm. Like "mansplaining", "patriarchy", "misogyny" and similar, it targets normal people and accuses them of being aggressors or guilty of some terrible crime. Nothing's more likely to make someone switch off to suggestions that there are things about the way they approach culture that could be improved than to tell them they're a heinous, evil, overprivileged, woman-hating rapist... when in fact they're just a regular guy who hasn't really done anything wrong and just lives by the current norms of his culture without really thinking about those norms too deeply.

[Robert_S]

I think it might be more of a subtle thing though: thinking up excuses, a tendency to blame the victim (mostly among older people), and perhaps underestimating the danger or the potential to change some men's attitude. I'm hesitant to say those kinds of problems constitute a "rape culture" but they are certainly aspects of our cultures that can and should be addressed.

I agree completely. I think "rape culture" is one of those unfortunate words/phrases that has the potential to do great harm. Like "mansplaining", "patriarchy", "misogyny" and similar, it targets normal people and accuses them of being aggressors or guilty of some terrible crime. Nothing's more likely to make someone switch off to suggestions that there are things about the way they approach culture that could be improved than to tell them they're a heinous, evil, overprivileged, woman-hating rapist... when in fact they're just a regular guy who hasn't really done anything wrong and just lives by the current norms of his culture without really thinking about those norms too deeply.

Yeah, I think it takes a certain amount of consistent and intentional behavior to justify slapping a label on a person. However, to say that some things a well intentioned person might do or say could be sexist (or racist, ablist, homophobic and so on) I think is fair and should be encouraged. It's only effective if it gets past the defenses to actually be considered though.

[rachelbean]

I think it might be more of a subtle thing though: thinking up excuses, a tendency to blame the victim (mostly among older people), and perhaps underestimating the danger or the potential to change some men's attitude. I'm hesitant to say those kinds of problems constitute a "rape culture" but they are certainly aspects of our cultures that can and should be addressed.

I agree completely. I think "rape culture" is one of those unfortunate words/phrases that has the potential to do great harm. Like "mansplaining", "patriarchy", "misogyny" and similar, it targets normal people and accuses them of being aggressors or guilty of some terrible crime. Nothing's more likely to make someone switch off to suggestions that there are things about the way they approach culture that could be improved than to tell them they're a heinous, evil, overprivileged, woman-hating rapist... when in fact they're just a regular guy who hasn't really done anything wrong and just lives by the current norms of his culture without really thinking about those norms too deeply.

Very well said.

[laklak]

Maybe we knuckle-dragging menses should try tempering our misogynistic behavior. Perhaps by being more open and accepting of those memetic ideals that appeal to women, like kittehs.

I can haz blowjob?

[Cormac]

Maybe we knuckle-dragging menses should try tempering our misogynistic behavior. Perhaps by being more open and accepting of those memetic ideals that appeal to women, like kittehs.

I can haz blowjob?

"menses"?

[Robert_S]

Kittehs are adorable in their own right and if you don't agree you can fuck off!

[Svartalf]

Kittehs and puppies gimme asthma and they are very well so long as they are away from my presence.