PZ accuses Shermer of rape.

[tattuchu]

You know, all this time I've been picturing Sam Harris. Who is this Michael Shermer fellow? He sounds awfully familiar.

Is your Google broken?

Yes, but I'm on medication.

[charlou]

I like you, tat.

[Jason]

You know, all this time I've been picturing Sam Harris. Who is this Michael Shermer fellow? He sounds awfully familiar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shermer

I see the PZ fans have not succeeded in editing his wiki to accuse him of rape (yes they did try to do that).

[DaveD]

Here's something I posted on Facebook and will repost here just for the sake of it:

Imagine if it were an adult coming forward to report that they'd been sexually abused by a named priest, as a child…

Do you think the skeptic community would be so apoplectic about the apparent lack of substance, and everything else, about the story presented?

Rightly or wrongly, I think they'd show very different standards in that case, which would be fascinating to see.

One of the (many) problems with the Catholic church child abuse scandal was that any reports of abuse were to go straight to Rome, bypassing the local civil authorities. Pope Myers seems to think he has that right too, else he would have reported the tale he says he heard to the police, or advised the woman to do so.
It would have been more understandable if the woman had wanted to make her accusation public, but Myers tells us she wanted to remain anonymous, so he's taken the decision away from her.
Whatever the truth of the matter (and, unlike Myers I'm not going to give an opinion about Shermer's guilt or innocence without at least some evidence), Myers was simply wrong to do what he did. Both Shermer and the woman making the accusation (if she exists, I don't trust Myers) will suffer as a result of Myers' hubris and desire for publicity, whoever is in the right.

[pErvinalia]

You know, all this time I've been picturing Sam Harris. Who is this Michael Shermer fellow? He sounds awfully familiar.

Is your Google broken?

shermernator.jpg (56.67 KiB) Viewed 1609 times

[tattuchu]

He looks like Jonathan Pryce in that pic. (rEv's poster).

Charlou, I've no idea what I did to make you like me. Tell me what it is so I can do it again

I looked at Shermer's Wiki page, by the way, and nothing rang any bells. But I definitely recognize his name. I'm assuming I must know him through Skeptical Inquirer magazine. Wiki doesn't say he's contributed to that, but I figure he must have.

[Ayaan]

Here's something I posted on Facebook and will repost here just for the sake of it:

Imagine if it were an adult coming forward to report that they'd been sexually abused by a named priest, as a child…

Do you think the skeptic community would be so apoplectic about the apparent lack of substance, and everything else, about the story presented?

Rightly or wrongly, I think they'd show very different standards in that case, which would be fascinating to see.

There is a history of priests sexually abusing children and the Catholic church has a history of covering it up, so I think that story might have a bit more credibility than the third-hand story PZ is presenting.

Edit: There is also a difference in that the adult in your analogy is coming forward first-hand, as the person the abuse is supposed to have happened to, not as someone telling about something that happened to a friend of a friend.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Here's something I posted on Facebook and will repost here just for the sake of it:

Imagine if it were an adult coming forward to report that they'd been sexually abused by a named priest, as a child…

Do you think the skeptic community would be so apoplectic about the apparent lack of substance, and everything else, about the story presented?

Rightly or wrongly, I think they'd show very different standards in that case, which would be fascinating to see.

This is a bad analogy.

The woman didn't come forward. She told her tale to one person (Purple Zigzag) that decided unilaterally to go public on her behalf (or was urged to by her - either way, the woman was not prepared to reveal her name.) So, if I may adjust your analogy a little...


Imagine that a self-appointed moral crusader told you that he knew of an anonymous adult that claimed to have been sexually abused by a named priest as a child...

Sounds a little less cut and dried now, doesn't it?

The issue here has never been the trustworthiness of the woman but the reliability of Pustulent Zygote's second-hand accusations.

[lordpasternack]

Here's something I posted on Facebook and will repost here just for the sake of it:

Imagine if it were an adult coming forward to report that they'd been sexually abused by a named priest, as a child…

Do you think the skeptic community would be so apoplectic about the apparent lack of substance, and everything else, about the story presented?

Rightly or wrongly, I think they'd show very different standards in that case, which would be fascinating to see.

One of the (many) problems with the Catholic church child abuse scandal was that any reports of abuse were to go straight to Rome, bypassing the local civil authorities. Pope Myers seems to think he has that right too, else he would have reported the tale he says he heard to the police, or advised the woman to do so.
It would have been more understandable if the woman had wanted to make her accusation public, but Myers tells us she wanted to remain anonymous, so he's taken the decision away from her.
Whatever the truth of the matter (and, unlike Myers I'm not going to give an opinion about Shermer's guilt or innocence without at least some evidence), Myers was simply wrong to do what he did. Both Shermer and the woman making the accusation (if she exists, I don't trust Myers) will suffer as a result of Myers' hubris and desire for publicity, whoever is in the right.

Nothing was (physically) stopping the victims and their families from reporting incidents directly to the police - I mean, apart from the fact that many of the police also felt that it was something to be handled internally within the church, rather than dealt with properly as a criminal case.

And having said that - if an adult did step out and accuse a named priest of abusing them as a child - would you tell them that they should have gone to the police and not published their account? I do wonder about the strengths and limitations of telling people to go straight to the police and/or shut up in the meantime.

[Audley Strange]

Weasel.jpg

I hope that's a suicide note.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

And having said that - if an adult did step out and accuse a named priest of abusing them as a child - would you tell them that they should have gone to the police and not published their account? I do wonder about the strengths and limitations of telling people to go straight to the police and/or shut up in the meantime.

I don't think anyone here is saying that. But, again, that is not what happened here. The woman has not gone public at all - a third party has gone public on her behalf without revealing her name. That is a very different situation.

[charlou]

Nothing was (physically) stopping the victims and their families from reporting incidents directly to the police - I mean, apart from the fact that many of the police also felt that it was something to be handled internally within the church, rather than dealt with properly as a criminal case.

Are you being ironic, or are you diminishing the impact of not only a lack of support, but active thwarting, from the agents of law and order had (has) on these cases?

And having said that - if an adult did step out and accuse a named priest of abusing them as a child - would you tell them that they should have gone to the police and not published their account? I do wonder about the strengths and limitations of telling people to go straight to the police and/or shut up in the meantime.

That's the difference between children and adults, though. A child confides in an adult, and that adult should notify the relevant agencies to deal with it. An adult confides in an adult, and that adult should .. well do the same if they feel a need to act on the behalf of the confiding person at all. hmmm .. not much difference as I see it.

[Audley Strange]

Here's something I posted on Facebook and will repost here just for the sake of it:

Imagine if it were an adult coming forward to report that they'd been sexually abused by a named priest, as a child…

Do you think the skeptic community would be so apoplectic about the apparent lack of substance, and everything else, about the story presented?

Rightly or wrongly, I think they'd show very different standards in that case, which would be fascinating to see.

Well there is evidence of historical and consistent child abuse by the Catholic church, I'm not sure that could be said about T.A.M. or the like. However if Dawkins came on claiming that one of his Daily Mail friends had sent him a letter from an anonymous third party claiming they were raped by PZ Myers (for example) my attitude would be the same. Why are you publicly gossipmongering rather than going to the police and encouraging anon to do likewise.

I do not know whether Michael Shermer is guilty or not. What I do know is that Myers has shown himself to be a sensationalist, credulous, uncharitable cunt who doesn't care who he maligns as long as he gets attention.

[lordpasternack]

Nothing was (physically) stopping the victims and their families from reporting incidents directly to the police - I mean, apart from the fact that many of the police also felt that it was something to be handled internally within the church, rather than dealt with properly as a criminal case.

Are you being ironic, or are you diminishing the impact of not only a lack of support, but active thwarting, from the agents of law and order had (has) on these cases?

Ironic.

That was sadly one issue where "go to the police" would have been as much shitty advice as "report it to the church"…

[charlou]

It's possible that the incidents weren't reported to the relevant authorities because the authorities aren't effectively dealing with them .. or .. because it was a case of the guy topping up the wine glass, while flirting perhaps leading to sex .. oooohhh this feels sooooo wrong ... but what the hey ... drink a bit more .. mmhhh I really shouldn't be doing this .. but ohso hot .. ummm no .. so flattering mmhh okay .. but no .. ohhhmmm yes .. feeble no .. stronger no, I'm a fine upstanding virtuous, monogamous woman .. but hhhhrrrrr lusty loss of inhibition ... so much wine ... so little coherence ..