PZ accuses Shermer of rape.

[Svartalf]

and the odds of her telling the full truth rather than a next day remorse tinged version are? (assuming this isn't a whole cloth lie, of course)

See, this is bothersome as well. You are assuming a lot about her. All we know is she got drunk with Michael Shermer and now claims to have been raped. It very well may be regret and confusion, but there is absolutely no reason besides his celebrity to believe him over her without any further evidence. What if she was raped? Just because he seems cool and is well known, doesn't mean he can't be capable of rape. And just because there are some lame stories about him refilling glasses and flirting doesn't mean it hasn't gone much further than that with others (it also doesn't mean he has). We don't know, and we won't unless/until it goes to trial and even then we'd just have the stories. I hope it isn't true, but I won't assume a woman I don't know is lying just because the story came through PZ.

I'll admit that the person telling her story to PZ and then wanting to stay anonymous and not having anything more to do with it does not speak in her favor and leads me to give more weight to the hypotheses that are less than favorable for her side of the story. .. she chose a notorious scandal monger and for her confident yet is not ready to assume that choice... makes me wonder what other choices she might have made that she refuses to assume now.

Not saying Shermer is an angel, for all I know he may very well be a slime ball, but I'm careful not to pre judge a guy who may be suffering false accusation, precisely because he's famous. Whereas an accuser who's utterly anonymous and won't even step forward... may have less of a reputation to destroy than one whose identity was known.

[DaveD]

... makes me wonder what other choices she might have made that she refuses to assume now.

Makes me wonder if she even exists.

[Svartalf]

... makes me wonder what other choices she might have made that she refuses to assume now.

Makes me wonder if she even exists.

(I work o,n the premise that she exists and that the story has a kernel of truth... if the story is a complete lie, then she has no good repute to destroy, either because she's a dirty liar or because "she" is called PZ)

[laklak]

Legally speaking Shermer did not rape her, he is innocent until proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, to be guilty. Rape is a very serious accusation, in many jurisdictions it is or can be punished as harshly as premeditated murder. In Florida, for example, the maximum penalty for forcible rape is life in prison with no parole. Given the severity of the punishment it is perfectly reasonable to err on the side of caution and insist on incontrovertible proof, though this may put the alleged victim at a disadvantage. That is regrettable, but I see no other option. We cannot selectively change the rules of jurisprudence because we view one crime as more heinous or depraved than another. The rules are the rules, and they're there for a good reason.

I wonder what the general feeling would be if PZ had accused Shermer of murder or kidnapping. Would the response from the zombie horde be as virulent?

[Cormac]

and the odds of her telling the full truth rather than a next day remorse tinged version are? (assuming this isn't a whole cloth lie, of course)

See, this is bothersome as well. You are assuming a lot about her. All we know is she got drunk with Michael Shermer and now claims to have been raped. It very well may be regret and confusion, but there is absolutely no reason besides his celebrity to believe him over her without any further evidence. What if she was raped? Just because he seems cool and is well known, doesn't mean he can't be capable of rape. And just because there are some lame stories about him refilling glasses and flirting doesn't mean it hasn't gone much further than that with others (it also doesn't mean he has). We don't know, and we won't unless/until it goes to trial and even then we'd just have the stories. I hope it isn't true, but I won't assume a woman I don't know is lying just because the story came through PZ.

We don't even know this. We know precisely that this has been alleged. We know absolutely nothing beyond this.

People lie all the time, and they lie in heinous and despicable ways.

We don't even know if "she" exists, at this point in time.

We have a number of very serious allegations levied by PZ against Shermer, and that is all.

And it is neither helping this woman or Shermer.

Myers is a preposterous ass who would be comical if his antics didn't have such serious consequences!

[Xamonas Chegwé]

and the odds of her telling the full truth rather than a next day remorse tinged version are? (assuming this isn't a whole cloth lie, of course)

See, this is bothersome as well. You are assuming a lot about her. All we know is she got drunk with Michael Shermer and now claims to have been raped. It very well may be regret and confusion, but there is absolutely no reason besides his celebrity to believe him over her without any further evidence. What if she was raped? Just because he seems cool and is well known, doesn't mean he can't be capable of rape. And just because there are some lame stories about him refilling glasses and flirting doesn't mean it hasn't gone much further than that with others (it also doesn't mean he has). We don't know, and we won't unless/until it goes to trial and even then we'd just have the stories. I hope it isn't true, but I won't assume a woman I don't know is lying just because the story came through PZ.

We don't even know this. We know precisely that this has been alleged. We know absolutely nothing beyond this.

People lie all the time, and they lie in heinous and despicable ways.

We don't even know if "she" exists, at this point in time.

We have a number of very serious allegations levied by PZ against Shermer, and that is all.

And it is neither helping this woman or Shermer.

Myers is a preposterous ass who would be comical if his antics didn't have such serious consequences!

This is the crux of the matter.

Even if we accept that this woman and her corroborator exist and did tell their tales to Pubic Zirconium Myers, he has no right to apportion blame, set himself up as judge and jury and condemn Shermer as a rapist! What he should have done, is to contact the police - end of.

[rachelbean]

I agree completely.

[pErvinalia]

I also agree with the name - Pubic Zirconium Myers!

[Azathoth]

and the odds of her telling the full truth rather than a next day remorse tinged version are? (assuming this isn't a whole cloth lie, of course)

See, this is bothersome as well. You are assuming a lot about her. All we know is she got drunk with Michael Shermer and now claims to have been raped. It very well may be regret and confusion, but there is absolutely no reason besides his celebrity to believe him over her without any further evidence. What if she was raped? Just because he seems cool and is well known, doesn't mean he can't be capable of rape. And just because there are some lame stories about him refilling glasses and flirting doesn't mean it hasn't gone much further than that with others (it also doesn't mean he has). We don't know, and we won't unless/until it goes to trial and even then we'd just have the stories. I hope it isn't true, but I won't assume a woman I don't know is lying just because the story came through PZ.

We don't even know this. We know precisely that this has been alleged. We know absolutely nothing beyond this.

People lie all the time, and they lie in heinous and despicable ways.

We don't even know if "she" exists, at this point in time.

We have a number of very serious allegations levied by PZ against Shermer, and that is all.

And it is neither helping this woman or Shermer.

Myers is a preposterous ass who would be comical if his antics didn't have such serious consequences!

This is the crux of the matter.

Even if we accept that this woman and her corroborator exist and did tell their tales to Pubic Zirconium Myers, he has no right to apportion blame, set himself up as judge and jury and condemn Shermer as a rapist! What he should have done, is to contact the police - end of.

That is what he should have done as a reasonable human being. To generate page views and book sales he should have gone about things exactly how he has.

[lordpasternack]

It would also have been fine if he had merely wanted to shame Shermer as ethically questionable, even reprehensible, if one accept the allegations at face-value - rather than actually publicly naming and shaming him as a rapist, on such tenuous grounds.

If it were any other type of allegation, I suspect he would respond with far more sanity. Indeed, he was one of the few people to respond with wise circumspection to what was effectively Robin Elisabeth Cornwell's press release defaming Josh Timonen, with a lot of lies and distorted facts: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010 ... v-timonen/

"… the case against him looks awfully damning. But it will have to work its way through the courts before anyone involved can say more."

Wise words, PZ. Wise words. And very powerful words in the case of that particular lawsuit.

Frankly, he should take advice from himself.

[Jason]

I've just done a little reading around teh webz with the google search "Shermer accused of rape" (Woo! More google hits for Rationalia!) and the thing that strikes me is that there isn't any concerted demand that Meyers back his accusation. I would expect the people who profess to be skeptics and rationalists would find making such possibly damning accusations without producing any evidence to back them whatsoever cause for an uproar or at least a stern challenge to Meyers to provide evidence for his extremely serious accusations, but this isn't the case. People comment on it, sure, but generally the issue is being discussed academically - detached from the fact that Meyers (I assume he makes some claim at being a skeptic and rationalist) has laid down a giant accusation publicly without producing a shred of evidence. I'm not surprised that the idiots at freethought blogs (free of thought I'm sure) have unthinkingly supported him, but I am surprised that other skeptic/rationalist groups have not called him out on the fact that he makes a huge claim and brings nothing to the table to support it, nevermind the idiotic, grandstanding, and self-serving, means by which he chose to move on this information he claims to have but admits to having no evidence for.

So, following that, I believe his first published book is available, or will be available soon. "The Happy Atheist". Be sure you buy it through the rationalia amazon links!

[Daedalus]

AFAICT PZ just did the legal equivalent of writing Shermer a large check.

Moron.

[laklak]

I'll bet the lawyers are in full-on Pavlovian mode, there are puddles of drool under desks from California to New York. PZ is now perched on the sharpened stake he constructed for Shermer's public immolation, and any number of legal vultures are gleefully opening cans of shortening to grease the pole. I'm enjoying the spectacle like Vlad Tepes at his breakfast table.

[Seabass]

What is that?? It looks like either Wilt Chamberlain, or Ming the Merciless from Flash Gordon...

[Jason]

Just a goof I made in photoshop.