PZ accuses Shermer of rape.

[charlou]

I think some women lack self-assurance and become victims of their own inability to take responsibility for their part in social interactions with men. And sometimes, later, the woman feels regret/feels guilty/feels icky/feels manipulated and accuses the man of inappropriate behaviour, blaming the man for putting her in a vulnerable position, of taking advantage of her because she's a woman.


Not saying some men don't exploit such women .. just saying that it's one dynamic .. that female victimhood can be self-incurred while being socially perpetuated.

Which does nothing to dispel the notion (held by some) that women are weak and unable to take care of themselves.

I think some women are weak and unable to take care of themselves, actually. Some may have weak/vulnerable periods, rather it being a constant state, though.

And not just women ... Some men lack self-assurance leading to vulnerable exposure and exploitation, as well .. albeit perhaps in a different form, though not necessarily.

[Ayaan]

I think some women lack self-assurance and become victims of their own inability to take responsibility for their part in social interactions with men. And sometimes, later, the woman feels regret/feels guilty/feels icky/feels manipulated and accuses the man of inappropriate behaviour, blaming the man for putting her in a vulnerable position, of taking advantage of her because she's a woman.


Not saying some men don't exploit such women .. just saying that it's one dynamic .. that female victimhood can be self-incurred while being socially perpetuated.

Which does nothing to dispel the notion (held by some) that women are weak and unable to take care of themselves.

I think some women are weak and unable to take care of themselves, actually.

And not just women ... Some men lack self-assurance leading to vulnerable exposure and exploitation, as well .. albeit perhaps in a different form, though not necessarily.

True on all counts. However, there are still those who think that women in general are that way despite the evidence and things like that don't help.

[Svartalf]

and the odds of her telling the full truth rather than a next day remorse tinged version are? (assuming this isn't a whole cloth lie, of course)

[charlou]

True on all counts. However, there are still those who think that women in general are that way despite the evidence and things like that don't help.

Yes, I agree .. And some who think they need to speak on behalf of all women because women in general are weak and vulnerable and incapable of living their lives with independent strength and self assurance.

[Azathoth]

There doesn't seem to be any indication of how much Shermer was drinking at the same time. IMO there is a big difference between getting someone drunk and getting drunk with someone.

[Robert_S]

There doesn't seem to be any indication of how much Shermer was drinking at the same time. IMO there is a big difference between getting someone drunk and getting drunk with someone.

[rachelbean]

There doesn't seem to be any indication of how much Shermer was drinking at the same time. IMO there is a big difference between getting someone drunk and getting drunk with someone.

This too. If he was not drinking then there is definitely a slimy element to it (again though, there is a difference between being a creep and being a rapist), but if he is refilling his own glass too then it has a very different element to it. Either way there are many details which we can't (and probably won't) know the details of. If the allegations are real (or hold any weight) they will go to court. Either way what what PZ did helps nobody, and posting more stories about him refilling drinks hurts both parties. If the allegations are true, these sort of stories shed doubt on the earlier non-specific story and if they are false it's just more smearing of his character. The whole story is ugly either way, but PZ revels in this kind of thing.

[Robert_S]

The whole story is ugly either way, but PZ revels in this kind of thing.

I really hope that on the whole, this place will rise above, not sink to his level.

[Audley Strange]

Anyway, I have trouble with the word "Coerced" if the woman accusing Shermer of rape was subject to the same MO as the third woman, who got drunker than intended.

I think "manipulated" seems a more accurate description. Maybe there's a better way to put it though?

Encouraged?

Literally. We all know some guys after a few drinks who turn into Dirty Harry and I can't be alone in knowing a few women (including the GLS) who get amorous when boozing it up. This is why we generally tend to only allow adults to drink, we consider that they should be (as the shitty adverts here say) enjoy drinking responsibly. If someone is saying that when they have a drink near them they must drink it until they are in a state where they are practically indifferent from a child and easily manipulated into non-consensual sex, I'd say they were an Alcoholic who sounds like a character in a Bukowski text. Or they knew exactly what they were doing.

I live in Glasgow, where people are horrified if you won't drink. I live in a booze culture. I've seen it over and over and over again. "It wisnae me... it wis the drink"

It's just a convenient excuse to get away with stuff and absolve yourself of any responsibility.

Again, this does not excuse anyone raping anyone.

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

Isn't PZ in the workhouse yet?...What the fuck's keeping them?

[rachelbean]

and the odds of her telling the full truth rather than a next day remorse tinged version are? (assuming this isn't a whole cloth lie, of course)

See, this is bothersome as well. You are assuming a lot about her. All we know is she got drunk with Michael Shermer and now claims to have been raped. It very well may be regret and confusion, but there is absolutely no reason besides his celebrity to believe him over her without any further evidence. What if she was raped? Just because he seems cool and is well known, doesn't mean he can't be capable of rape. And just because there are some lame stories about him refilling glasses and flirting doesn't mean it hasn't gone much further than that with others (it also doesn't mean he has). We don't know, and we won't unless/until it goes to trial and even then we'd just have the stories. I hope it isn't true, but I won't assume a woman I don't know is lying just because the story came through PZ.

[Audley Strange]

Good post Rachel. However does it not make you wonder why such a person would make such a claim to PZombie and be fine with him posting it on his website (which I'm assuming, he may have done so without her consent ) rather than go to a larger media group or failing that, the proper authorities?

[rachelbean]

It does make me wonder, although I guess we don't know that she hasn't gone to the authorities (unless she stated that somewhere and I didn't see) in addition to "anonymously" leaking the info. Obviously I know that there can be all sorts of twisted motivation for reporting something that is untrue, and there is also the possibility of it being them both "telling the truth" as they experienced it.

What bothers me about Svarty's sentiment (which is one you hear by many people every time a case like this comes up) is that there is the assumption that there is a greater chance that the woman is lying, than not. I don't think statistics will show that to be anything close to true, but it's generally the first types of comments thrown out. And, because of my comments about taking responsibility for your own actions etc, I want to make sure that my opinion is not misconstrued to be the same.

[pErvinalia]

Ok, I just checked, it's from both (i.e. the lawyer letter quoting the blog). FTB was down earlier, so I don't know if you will be able to view it at the moment. I've got it cached in pdf, so I've attached a screenshot of the relevant bit.

That isn't the alleged victim's own testimony

So? There isn't any testimony at all, regardless of who said it. All we've got so far is third-hand info.

- and the other person could be implying "immediately after she'd emerged from Shermer's room".

Possibly yes.

All of these statements will be lawyered to hell, though, of course… And ultimately, Myers was pretty fucking stupid to post an unsubstantiable (and vague) account of alleged sexual assault, allegedly from a woman who wishes to remain anonymous, doesn't want to be involved, and fears retaliation from Shermer. Now this alleged woman will either have to testify and provide evidence, likely revealing her identity - or Myers will just have to suck up all accusations that she is fictional.

Great success.

Myers has seemed more and more unhinged to me over the last couple of years. I wonder if he's losing the plot.

[Audley Strange]

Yeah Rachel. This is exactly why I have been putting "not that it excuses anybody raping anybody" at the end of some of my posts.