PZ accuses Shermer of rape.

[Pappa]

So a couple more stories got added, both anonymous.

Further corroboration: a witness has come forward. This person has asked to remain anonymous too, but I will say they’re someone who doesn’t particularly like me — so no accusations of fannishness, OK?

The anonymous woman who wrote to you is known to me, and in fact I was in her presence immediately after said incident (she was extremely distraught), and when she told the management of the conference (some time later).

Women are still writing into me with their personal stories. This one isn’t so awful, but it’s mainly illustrative of his tactics…there’s nothing here that would form the basis of any kind of serious complaint, but most importantly, I think, it tells you exactly what kind of behavior to watch out for with him.

Michael Shermer was the guest of honor at an atheist event I attended in Fall 2006; I was on the Board of the group who hosted it. It’s a very short story: I got my book signed, then at the post-speech party, Shermer chatted with me at great length while refilling my wine glass repeatedly. I lost count of how many drinks I had. He was flirting with me and I am non-confrontational and unwilling to be rude, so I just laughed it off. He made sure my wine glass stayed full.

And that’s the entirety of my story: Michael Shermer helped get me drunker than I normally get, and was a bit flirty. I can’t recall the details because I was intoxicated. I don’t remember how I left, but I am told that a friend took me away from the situation and home from the party. Note, I’d never gotten drunk at any atheist event before; I was humiliated by having gotten so drunk and even more ashamed that my friends had to cart me off before anything happened to me.

But I had a bad taste in my mouth about Shermer’s flirtatiousness, because I’m married, and I thought he was kind of a pig. I didn’t even keep his signed book, I didn’t want it near me.

Over the years as rumors have flown about atheist women warning each other about a lecherous author/speaker, I thought of all the authors and speakers I had met during my time as an atheist activist, and I guessed that Shermer was the one being warned against.

Now there are tweets and blogs about his sexually inappropriate behavior as well as his fondness for getting chicks drunk, so I feel quite less alone. I don’t think he realizes he is doing anything wrong. Men who behave inappropriately sexually never think they are doing anything wrong.

I have mixed feelings about your grenade-dropping. I have heard arguments both for and against what you did. Whether or not I agree with it, I just want to say that the accusations against Shermer match up with my personal experience with him, insofar as he seemed hellbent on helping me get drunk, and was very flirty with me. Take it for what you will. I believe the accusers.

"He made sure my wine glass stayed full."

Yeah, and clearly you made sure it kept getting emptier so he could refill it, all the while you're laughing at his jokes and seemingly giving him the impression you're happy with the situation. If you don't want your glass refilled, you could stop drinking.

[Daedalus]

So a couple more stories got added, both anonymous.

Further corroboration: a witness has come forward. This person has asked to remain anonymous too, but I will say they’re someone who doesn’t particularly like me — so no accusations of fannishness, OK?

The anonymous woman who wrote to you is known to me, and in fact I was in her presence immediately after said incident (she was extremely distraught), and when she told the management of the conference (some time later).

Women are still writing into me with their personal stories. This one isn’t so awful, but it’s mainly illustrative of his tactics…there’s nothing here that would form the basis of any kind of serious complaint, but most importantly, I think, it tells you exactly what kind of behavior to watch out for with him.

Michael Shermer was the guest of honor at an atheist event I attended in Fall 2006; I was on the Board of the group who hosted it. It’s a very short story: I got my book signed, then at the post-speech party, Shermer chatted with me at great length while refilling my wine glass repeatedly. I lost count of how many drinks I had. He was flirting with me and I am non-confrontational and unwilling to be rude, so I just laughed it off. He made sure my wine glass stayed full.

And that’s the entirety of my story: Michael Shermer helped get me drunker than I normally get, and was a bit flirty. I can’t recall the details because I was intoxicated. I don’t remember how I left, but I am told that a friend took me away from the situation and home from the party. Note, I’d never gotten drunk at any atheist event before; I was humiliated by having gotten so drunk and even more ashamed that my friends had to cart me off before anything happened to me.

But I had a bad taste in my mouth about Shermer’s flirtatiousness, because I’m married, and I thought he was kind of a pig. I didn’t even keep his signed book, I didn’t want it near me.

Over the years as rumors have flown about atheist women warning each other about a lecherous author/speaker, I thought of all the authors and speakers I had met during my time as an atheist activist, and I guessed that Shermer was the one being warned against.

Now there are tweets and blogs about his sexually inappropriate behavior as well as his fondness for getting chicks drunk, so I feel quite less alone. I don’t think he realizes he is doing anything wrong. Men who behave inappropriately sexually never think they are doing anything wrong.

I have mixed feelings about your grenade-dropping. I have heard arguments both for and against what you did. Whether or not I agree with it, I just want to say that the accusations against Shermer match up with my personal experience with him, insofar as he seemed hellbent on helping me get drunk, and was very flirty with me. Take it for what you will. I believe the accusers.

"He made sure my wine glass stayed full."

Yeah, and clearly you made sure it kept getting emptier so he could refill it, all the while you're laughing at his jokes and seemingly giving him the impression you're happy with the situation. If you don't want your glass refilled, you could stop drinking.

Four precious words to save us all pain:

"No thanks."
"Fuck off."

Problem solved!

[laklak]

"You can't afford me and you'd fall in love"

[Seth]

"He made sure my wine glass stayed full."

Yeah, and clearly you made sure it kept getting emptier so he could refill it, all the while you're laughing at his jokes and seemingly giving him the impression you're happy with the situation. If you don't want your glass refilled, you could stop drinking.

Er...not to put too fine a point on it, but isn't that what I've been saying all along?

[Pappa]

I was going to say, "I wonder what the Ape Lusters are making of it", but then I remembered I'd rather eat broken glass than know.

[Pappa]

"He made sure my wine glass stayed full."

Yeah, and clearly you made sure it kept getting emptier so he could refill it, all the while you're laughing at his jokes and seemingly giving him the impression you're happy with the situation. If you don't want your glass refilled, you could stop drinking.

Er...not to put too fine a point on it, but isn't that what I've been saying all along?

Not really no. Your point goes a tad further.

[Azathoth]

Don't forget to preorder his book. It is out tomorrow you know. Nothing dodgy about the timing of this particular shitstorm, nothing at all.

[Seth]

"He made sure my wine glass stayed full."

Yeah, and clearly you made sure it kept getting emptier so he could refill it, all the while you're laughing at his jokes and seemingly giving him the impression you're happy with the situation. If you don't want your glass refilled, you could stop drinking.

Er...not to put too fine a point on it, but isn't that what I've been saying all along?

Not really no. Your point goes a tad further.

Well, yes, but it's the fundamental precept is it not?

If she'd wandered off with Shermer to have a quick fuck in the bathroom, would it have been "rape" just because she was a bit tipsy? I don't think so.

[Robert_S]

"He made sure my wine glass stayed full."

Yeah, and clearly you made sure it kept getting emptier so he could refill it, all the while you're laughing at his jokes and seemingly giving him the impression you're happy with the situation. If you don't want your glass refilled, you could stop drinking.

Er...not to put too fine a point on it, but isn't that what I've been saying all along?

Not really no. Your point goes a tad further.

Well, yes, but it's the fundamental precept is it not?

If she'd wandered off with Shermer to have a quick fuck in the bathroom, would it have been "rape" just because she was a bit tipsy? I don't think so.

A bit tipsy or falling down drunk? There's a big difference IMO.

Legally defined as rape or a highly unethical exploitation?

Leaving oneself vulnerable is not consent.


Some guys are like telemarketers. You can't pleasantly refuse. You have to shut them down abruptly, in a way that many find quite rude. Sadly, it seems a lot of women, as well as quite a few men, find that to be a very difficult task.

[Cormac]

So a couple more stories got added, both anonymous.

Further corroboration: a witness has come forward. This person has asked to remain anonymous too, but I will say they’re someone who doesn’t particularly like me — so no accusations of fannishness, OK?

The anonymous woman who wrote to you is known to me, and in fact I was in her presence immediately after said incident (she was extremely distraught), and when she told the management of the conference (some time later).

Women are still writing into me with their personal stories. This one isn’t so awful, but it’s mainly illustrative of his tactics…there’s nothing here that would form the basis of any kind of serious complaint, but most importantly, I think, it tells you exactly what kind of behavior to watch out for with him.

Michael Shermer was the guest of honor at an atheist event I attended in Fall 2006; I was on the Board of the group who hosted it. It’s a very short story: I got my book signed, then at the post-speech party, Shermer chatted with me at great length while refilling my wine glass repeatedly. I lost count of how many drinks I had. He was flirting with me and I am non-confrontational and unwilling to be rude, so I just laughed it off. He made sure my wine glass stayed full.

And that’s the entirety of my story: Michael Shermer helped get me drunker than I normally get, and was a bit flirty. I can’t recall the details because I was intoxicated. I don’t remember how I left, but I am told that a friend took me away from the situation and home from the party. Note, I’d never gotten drunk at any atheist event before; I was humiliated by having gotten so drunk and even more ashamed that my friends had to cart me off before anything happened to me.

But I had a bad taste in my mouth about Shermer’s flirtatiousness, because I’m married, and I thought he was kind of a pig. I didn’t even keep his signed book, I didn’t want it near me.

Over the years as rumors have flown about atheist women warning each other about a lecherous author/speaker, I thought of all the authors and speakers I had met during my time as an atheist activist, and I guessed that Shermer was the one being warned against.

Now there are tweets and blogs about his sexually inappropriate behavior as well as his fondness for getting chicks drunk, so I feel quite less alone. I don’t think he realizes he is doing anything wrong. Men who behave inappropriately sexually never think they are doing anything wrong.

I have mixed feelings about your grenade-dropping. I have heard arguments both for and against what you did. Whether or not I agree with it, I just want to say that the accusations against Shermer match up with my personal experience with him, insofar as he seemed hellbent on helping me get drunk, and was very flirty with me. Take it for what you will. I believe the accusers.

"He made sure my wine glass stayed full."

Yeah, and clearly you made sure it kept getting emptier so he could refill it, all the while you're laughing at his jokes and seemingly giving him the impression you're happy with the situation. If you don't want your glass refilled, you could stop drinking.

It also tells you what kind of tactics you can expect from Pee Pee Zed:

1. Buy your own drinks lady
2. Don't expect me to talk to you - entertain yourself
3. What are you doing here still?
4. Did you buy my new book yet?

Arsehole. What a mendacious prick.

[Audley Strange]

I was going to say, "I wonder what the Ape Lusters are making of it", but then I remembered I'd rather eat broken glass than know.

They're using the latest witch-hunt to turn on each other. Someone at JREF linked to a hilarious thread which Setar called "There goes the neighbourhood" in which he describes the recent allegations as being like a nuclear bomb going off. After several different people have had their words hidden with a snarky mischaracterisation by the immoderators. This leads to a point where he is considered a racist and evil for comparing a rape accusation to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of women and children in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and is using a racially charged title.

In other words business as usual.

[Bella Fortuna]

Seriously? He kept refilling her wine glass (which she kept emptying) and flirted with her (while she laughed, which would seem like encouragement to most people). I am completely confused about what he was supposed to have done wrong. Take some fucking responsibility for your own actions

This.

[Robert_S]

Seriously? He kept refilling her wine glass (which she kept emptying) and flirted with her (while she laughed, which would seem like encouragement to most people). I am completely confused about what he was supposed to have done wrong. Take some fucking responsibility for your own actions

This.

A agree, but then..

How would you feel if it were a friend recounting that story in private? Would you go out of your way to invite that guy to your parties?


There's something to the story as a story as an anecdote about an uncomfortable encounter. That's different from it being on a blog with the accused named and the accuser anonymous. That's different still from using it in support of a rape accusation.

[Bella Fortuna]

How would you feel if it were a friend recounting that story in private? Would you go out of your way to invite that guy to your parties?

Depends on the relationship of each of these two people to me - depending on that I might advise the guy to watch himself and be more mindful of his interactions... and the woman similarly, actually.

[Audley Strange]

I may have mentioned this before or I may not have. A friend of mine once noticed in his girlfriend's Cosmo or Vogue magazine (this anecdote happened a while ago) an article that said "Have you ever been sold fake tickets?" Which seems like a reasonable question. However he pointed out it could have equally asked "Have you ever purchased fake tickets?" but the implication of both of these questions is subtly different but quite important, since the latter implies some responsibility on behalf of the individual and the former does not.

Both he and his girl found this deeply sexist, since it treated women as if they were acted upon rather than actors, a priori victims waiting for the next horror to befall them.

I think it pertinent w/r to this accusation in so far as it seems the person involved is incapable of considering that they are responsible for their actions.

None of which excuses anyone raping anyone.