Assuming these are two adults who are not mentally deficient in such a way as to not be aware that alcohol influences judgment and also assuming when they were alone he did not force himself on her, then that could be, at the very worst, a sort of predatory behaviour but not rape. Or is 'drunk sex' rape automatically?Robert_S wrote:Girl was drinking some place and some guy socially maneuvers her, slowly and insidiously, to be alone with her as the night goes on and she gets drunker, eventually he alone with her and...Făkünamę wrote:The girl later decided she hadn't been able to give consent because she'd had three banana daiquiris. Classic post-coital rape realization. The question is did she consent to have drinks with him with the foreknowledge it may lead to sex, did he force them down her throat with a funnel, or is she simply retarded. Sex with a retard is always rape as they're never able to consent.JacksSmirkingRevenge wrote:"Got me drunk", maybe?tattuchu wrote:What does "coerced me into a position where I could not consent" mean?
I've seen that sort of thing happen. The story seems plausible.
PZ accuses Shermer of rape.
Re: PZ accuses Shemer of rape.
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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.
I wasn't begging the question - I meant unambiguous cases of rape, such as you mentioned: plying someone with drink and then raping them while they are incapacitated.
And as for "taking responsibility" for impaired judgement - well, that's a difficult ethical issue. If you have sex with someone whose judgement is currently impaired to whatever degree, isn't that potentially exploitative and irresponsible, on your part?
On the other hand, if a slightly drunk person is all for having sex, and you make a judgement call that they are sincere, and still capable of making that decision - I feel it would be disingenuous to vilify another person because of what they deem to be their poor judgement.
There are grey areas - and I think there's a sliding scale of onus on either party, where intoxication and consent are concerned.
And as for "taking responsibility" for impaired judgement - well, that's a difficult ethical issue. If you have sex with someone whose judgement is currently impaired to whatever degree, isn't that potentially exploitative and irresponsible, on your part?
On the other hand, if a slightly drunk person is all for having sex, and you make a judgement call that they are sincere, and still capable of making that decision - I feel it would be disingenuous to vilify another person because of what they deem to be their poor judgement.
There are grey areas - and I think there's a sliding scale of onus on either party, where intoxication and consent are concerned.
Last edited by lordpasternack on Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PZ accuses Shemer of rape.
If she's blackout slobbering incoherent drunk and he's just kinda tipsy, I'd say that's probably rape.Făkünamę wrote:Assuming these are two adults who are not mentally deficient in such a way as to not be aware that alcohol influences judgment and also assuming when they were alone he did not force himself on her, then that could be, at the very worst, a sort of predatory behaviour but not rape. Or is 'drunk sex' rape automatically?Robert_S wrote:Girl was drinking some place and some guy socially maneuvers her, slowly and insidiously, to be alone with her as the night goes on and she gets drunker, eventually he alone with her and...Făkünamę wrote:The girl later decided she hadn't been able to give consent because she'd had three banana daiquiris. Classic post-coital rape realization. The question is did she consent to have drinks with him with the foreknowledge it may lead to sex, did he force them down her throat with a funnel, or is she simply retarded. Sex with a retard is always rape as they're never able to consent.JacksSmirkingRevenge wrote:"Got me drunk", maybe?tattuchu wrote:What does "coerced me into a position where I could not consent" mean?
I've seen that sort of thing happen. The story seems plausible.
BTW, I've never seen that kind of thing happen in its entirety where I, or someone else, did not intervene. But I've seen pieces and heard the rest later, kicking myself for being so oblivious.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.
http://www.huffpost.com/us/entry/2206356Drunken Sex - A Moral Dilemma
In April of this year, Welsh international soccer star, Ched Evans, was sentenced to five years in jail after being convicted of the rape of a young woman, who, in the words of the judge, was "extremely intoxicated" and in "no condition to have sexual intercourse." The legal principle that resulted in his conviction is now well-established: consent requires that a person is capable of consenting, and if you're very drunk, you're not capable of consenting. The UK's Sexual Offences Act (2003), for example, states that consent exists if a person agrees by choice to engage in sexual activity and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice. A person who is "extremely intoxicated" lacks that capacity, which is why Evans, who admitted having sex with his victim, is now in jail...
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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.
lordpasternack wrote:http://www.huffpost.com/us/entry/2206356Drunken Sex - A Moral Dilemma
In April of this year, Welsh international soccer star, Ched Evans, was sentenced to five years in jail after being convicted of the rape of a young woman, who, in the words of the judge, was "extremely intoxicated" and in "no condition to have sexual intercourse." The legal principle that resulted in his conviction is now well-established: consent requires that a person is capable of consenting, and if you're very drunk, you're not capable of consenting. The UK's Sexual Offences Act (2003), for example, states that consent exists if a person agrees by choice to engage in sexual activity and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice. A person who is "extremely intoxicated" lacks that capacity, which is why Evans, who admitted having sex with his victim, is now in jail...
I got a 404 error.
Edit:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-st ... 06356.html seems to work.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.
What I don't understand is "plying someone with drink". This sounds like what PZ claimed this woman said: "coerced me into a position where I could not consent" - which evidently meant she got drunk.lordpasternack wrote:I wasn't begging the question - I meant unambiguous cases of rape, such as you mentioned: plying someone with drink and then raping them while they are incapacitated.
And as for "taking responsibility" for impaired judgement - well, that's a difficult ethical issue. If you have sex with someone whose judgement is currently impaired to whatever degree, isn't that potentially exploitative and irresponsible, on your part?
On the other hand, if a slightly drunk person is all for having sex, and you make a judgement call that they are sincere, and still capable of making that decision - I feel it would be disingenuous to vilify another person because of what they deem to be their poor judgement.
There are grey areas - and I think there's a sliding scale of onus on either party, where intoxication and consent are concerned.
There are two issues of responsibility here, not one: we've been talking about only one - the sex after drinking. But there is the prior issue of drinking itself. "Plying someone with drink" and "coerced me into a position" sound like the woman (or, if you like, women in general) has no choice about how much she drinks, or even if she drinks at all. Are women that helpless? Are they not to be held responsible for their decisions about what and how much they drink? Why not?
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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.
Unwanted sex as punishment for getting drunk? That sounds a hell of a lot like rape to me.orpheus wrote:What I don't understand is "plying someone with drink". This sounds like what PZ claimed this woman said: "coerced me into a position where I could not consent" - which evidently meant she got drunk.lordpasternack wrote:I wasn't begging the question - I meant unambiguous cases of rape, such as you mentioned: plying someone with drink and then raping them while they are incapacitated.
And as for "taking responsibility" for impaired judgement - well, that's a difficult ethical issue. If you have sex with someone whose judgement is currently impaired to whatever degree, isn't that potentially exploitative and irresponsible, on your part?
On the other hand, if a slightly drunk person is all for having sex, and you make a judgement call that they are sincere, and still capable of making that decision - I feel it would be disingenuous to vilify another person because of what they deem to be their poor judgement.
There are grey areas - and I think there's a sliding scale of onus on either party, where intoxication and consent are concerned.
There are two issues of responsibility here, not one: we've been talking about only one - the sex after drinking. But there is the prior issue of drinking itself. "Plying someone with drink" and "coerced me into a position" sound like the woman (or, if you like, women in general) has no choice about how much she drinks, or even if she drinks at all. Are women that helpless? Are they not to be held responsible for their decisions about what and how much they drink? Why not?
There are times when responsibility does not diffuse, but multiplies. You can argue that a woman has a responsibility to herself to not get drunk alone in the presence of someone who is known to rape drunk women. But that does not reduce -not a single slightest bit- the responsibility of anyone to refrain from raping a woman just because she is vulnerable from having drank too much. Just like I have a responsibility to myself and my flatmate to lock the doors. That does not make a thief any less of a criminal just because they found the doors unlocked.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.
No, you misunderstand me. Of course she's not responsible for the unwanted sex. And yes, that does sound like rape to me. And I don't mean it as a "punishment for getting drunk". A woman can drink all she wants, and it does not make her at all responsible for someone taking advantage of her while she's drunk.Robert_S wrote:Unwanted sex as punishment for getting drunk? That sounds a hell of a lot like rape to me.orpheus wrote:What I don't understand is "plying someone with drink". This sounds like what PZ claimed this woman said: "coerced me into a position where I could not consent" - which evidently meant she got drunk.lordpasternack wrote:I wasn't begging the question - I meant unambiguous cases of rape, such as you mentioned: plying someone with drink and then raping them while they are incapacitated.
And as for "taking responsibility" for impaired judgement - well, that's a difficult ethical issue. If you have sex with someone whose judgement is currently impaired to whatever degree, isn't that potentially exploitative and irresponsible, on your part?
On the other hand, if a slightly drunk person is all for having sex, and you make a judgement call that they are sincere, and still capable of making that decision - I feel it would be disingenuous to vilify another person because of what they deem to be their poor judgement.
There are grey areas - and I think there's a sliding scale of onus on either party, where intoxication and consent are concerned.
There are two issues of responsibility here, not one: we've been talking about only one - the sex after drinking. But there is the prior issue of drinking itself. "Plying someone with drink" and "coerced me into a position" sound like the woman (or, if you like, women in general) has no choice about how much she drinks, or even if she drinks at all. Are women that helpless? Are they not to be held responsible for their decisions about what and how much they drink? Why not?
There are times when responsibility does not diffuse, but multiplies. You can argue that a woman has a responsibility to herself to not get drunk alone in the presence of someone who is known to rape drunk women. But that does not reduce -not a single slightest bit- the responsibility of anyone to refrain from raping a woman just because she is vulnerable from having drank too much. Just like I have a responsibility to myself and my flatmate to lock the doors. That does not make a thief any less of a criminal just because they found the doors unlocked.
All I'm saying is that "plying someone with drink" and "coerced me into a position where I could not consent" is saying that not only did the woman not have a choice about the sex - it's saying she didn't have a choice about drinking. And that's what I don't understand.
I think that language has a lot to do with interfering in our relationship to direct experience. A simple thing like metaphor will allows you to go to a place and say 'this is like that'. Well, this isn't like that. This is like this.
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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.
Ah, OK. That is sortof a puzzler to be honest.orpheus wrote:
No, you misunderstand me. Of course she's not responsible for the unwanted sex. And yes, that does sound like rape to me. And I don't mean it as a "punishment for getting drunk". A woman can drink all she wants, and it does not make her at all responsible for someone taking advantage of her while she's drunk.
All I'm saying is that "plying someone with drink" and "coerced me into a position where I could not consent" is saying that not only did the woman not have a choice about the sex - it's saying she didn't have a choice about drinking. And that's what I don't understand.
Such a lack of detail makes for too much speculation meethinks. I would guess alcohol, or perhaps a spiked drink was involved, but who fucking knows?
Heh, maybe it's a deep false flag operation designed to discredit PZ along with some women who have legitimate grievances. If one were to do such a thing, PZ would seem like the one most likely to bite.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.
I don't understand why PZ published a claim with so little actual... anything to it. Not only are the accusers anonymous-- we don't even know exactly what it is Shermer supposedly did, except that it was bad. Really bad. PZ admits no evidence, but is willing to seriously smear one man on the witness of a two women he takes on faith. What the hell kind of scientist is that?
I don't get this at all. But my opinion of PZ, already low, has dropped even lower on this account.
I mean, why not investigate? Why not discuss the situation with the conference organizers? Why not do something substantial to try to help this woman he thinks was raped, without simply tossing her story to the gods of blogdom and reveling in the hits and the drama?
I don't get this at all. But my opinion of PZ, already low, has dropped even lower on this account.
I mean, why not investigate? Why not discuss the situation with the conference organizers? Why not do something substantial to try to help this woman he thinks was raped, without simply tossing her story to the gods of blogdom and reveling in the hits and the drama?
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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.
"the hits and the drama"hadespussercats wrote:I don't understand why PZ published a claim with so little actual... anything to it. Not only are the accusers anonymous-- we don't even know exactly what it is Shermer supposedly did, except that it was bad. Really bad. PZ admits no evidence, but is willing to seriously smear one man on the witness of a two women he takes on faith. What the hell kind of scientist is that?
I don't get this at all. But my opinion of PZ, already low, has dropped even lower on this account.
I mean, why not investigate? Why not discuss the situation with the conference organizers? Why not do something substantial to try to help this woman he thinks was raped, without simply tossing her story to the gods of blogdom and reveling in the hits and the drama?
How else for an assistant professor to make a name as a blogger?
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P
The Net is best considered analogous to communication with disincarnate intelligences. As any neophyte would tell you. Do not invoke that which you have no facility to banish.
Audley Strange
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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.
Let's just hope that Shermer sues his ass.hadespussercats wrote:I don't understand why PZ published a claim with so little actual... anything to it. Not only are the accusers anonymous-- we don't even know exactly what it is Shermer supposedly did, except that it was bad. Really bad. PZ admits no evidence, but is willing to seriously smear one man on the witness of a two women he takes on faith. What the hell kind of scientist is that?
I don't get this at all. But my opinion of PZ, already low, has dropped even lower on this account.
I mean, why not investigate? Why not discuss the situation with the conference organizers? Why not do something substantial to try to help this woman he thinks was raped, without simply tossing her story to the gods of blogdom and reveling in the hits and the drama?
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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.
Falling down, slobbering, incapable of coherent conversation - type of drunk is certainly a condition where anyone would be unable to give consent, and probably an entire spectrum of states before that. But the bar must be set somewhere solid for it to be law and surely they must require some kind of evidence to come to that conclusion. Relying on what one person's idea of "extremely intoxicated" to set the standard for crimes of rape seems very arbitrary to me.lordpasternack wrote:http://www.huffpost.com/us/entry/2206356Drunken Sex - A Moral Dilemma
In April of this year, Welsh international soccer star, Ched Evans, was sentenced to five years in jail after being convicted of the rape of a young woman, who, in the words of the judge, was "extremely intoxicated" and in "no condition to have sexual intercourse." The legal principle that resulted in his conviction is now well-established: consent requires that a person is capable of consenting, and if you're very drunk, you're not capable of consenting. The UK's Sexual Offences Act (2003), for example, states that consent exists if a person agrees by choice to engage in sexual activity and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice. A person who is "extremely intoxicated" lacks that capacity, which is why Evans, who admitted having sex with his victim, is now in jail...
Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.
He pretty much has to doesn't he? If he doesn't a lot of those people will assume his guilt. If he just makes a response or statement it will still be a black mark on his record.JacksSmirkingRevenge wrote:Let's just hope that Shermer sues his ass.hadespussercats wrote:I don't understand why PZ published a claim with so little actual... anything to it. Not only are the accusers anonymous-- we don't even know exactly what it is Shermer supposedly did, except that it was bad. Really bad. PZ admits no evidence, but is willing to seriously smear one man on the witness of a two women he takes on faith. What the hell kind of scientist is that?
I don't get this at all. But my opinion of PZ, already low, has dropped even lower on this account.
I mean, why not investigate? Why not discuss the situation with the conference organizers? Why not do something substantial to try to help this woman he thinks was raped, without simply tossing her story to the gods of blogdom and reveling in the hits and the drama?
Glee!!
Shermer with his own magazine, published works, etc, could see serious financial losses as well as professional damage from this accusation.
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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.
Indeed.Făkünamę wrote:He pretty much has to doesn't he? If he doesn't a lot of those people will assume his guilt. If he just makes a response or statement it will still be a black mark on his record.JacksSmirkingRevenge wrote:Let's just hope that Shermer sues his ass.hadespussercats wrote:I don't understand why PZ published a claim with so little actual... anything to it. Not only are the accusers anonymous-- we don't even know exactly what it is Shermer supposedly did, except that it was bad. Really bad. PZ admits no evidence, but is willing to seriously smear one man on the witness of a two women he takes on faith. What the hell kind of scientist is that?
I don't get this at all. But my opinion of PZ, already low, has dropped even lower on this account.
I mean, why not investigate? Why not discuss the situation with the conference organizers? Why not do something substantial to try to help this woman he thinks was raped, without simply tossing her story to the gods of blogdom and reveling in the hits and the drama?
Glee!!
Shermer with his own magazine, published works, etc, could see serious financial losses as well as professional damage from this accusation.
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